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	<title>Comments on: Realistic Space Exploration</title>
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	<description>Inductive Game Design Research</description>
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		<title>By: sascha/hdrs</title>
		<link>http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/realistic-space-exploration/comment-page-1/#comment-29882</link>
		<dc:creator>sascha/hdrs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 03:30:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gamedesignreviews.com/reviews/realistic-space-exploration/#comment-29882</guid>
		<description>I understand your point of view but you indirectly pretty much point out that most sci-fi is nothing else than fantasy. Just because it&#039;s impossible (and probably never will be) doesn&#039;t mean it can&#039;t be used for fiction, does it?! I have no problems playing a game where I can travel between stars within minutes, after all you don&#039;t want to spend the next 200 years playing the game waiting to arrive at that world 20 ly away, right?

But I do agree that many games don&#039;t even nearly approach a good sense of the scale of distance of space and Mass Effect is no exclusion. The only game I know of that does it borderline decent is EVE Online. Yes sure, it&#039;s the same misleading vision over there that you could travel between worlds very quickly but at least they did a good job of how to portray it. In EVE traveling from one side of the &#039;galaxy&#039; to the other is quite a bit of work as far as I remember from the few times I trialed EVE Online.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand your point of view but you indirectly pretty much point out that most sci-fi is nothing else than fantasy. Just because it&#8217;s impossible (and probably never will be) doesn&#8217;t mean it can&#8217;t be used for fiction, does it?! I have no problems playing a game where I can travel between stars within minutes, after all you don&#8217;t want to spend the next 200 years playing the game waiting to arrive at that world 20 ly away, right?</p>
<p>But I do agree that many games don&#8217;t even nearly approach a good sense of the scale of distance of space and Mass Effect is no exclusion. The only game I know of that does it borderline decent is EVE Online. Yes sure, it&#8217;s the same misleading vision over there that you could travel between worlds very quickly but at least they did a good job of how to portray it. In EVE traveling from one side of the &#8216;galaxy&#8217; to the other is quite a bit of work as far as I remember from the few times I trialed EVE Online.</p>
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		<title>By: Krystian Majewski</title>
		<link>http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/realistic-space-exploration/comment-page-1/#comment-6153</link>
		<dc:creator>Krystian Majewski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Oct 2010 21:40:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gamedesignreviews.com/reviews/realistic-space-exploration/#comment-6153</guid>
		<description>As I have mentioned in the article, the analogy to flying doesn&#039;t fly. Before the invention of airplanes there were birds and plenty of unmanned flying devices. Same for the sonic barrier. FTL travel is different. What we already know for sure that the universe is simply not built this way. It might be more interesting to start thinking about the real consequences of that realization instead of insisting on exploring the same fallacy over and over and over again.

As for the Jesus comment - that doesn&#039;t really have anything to do with spaceflight either, does it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I have mentioned in the article, the analogy to flying doesn&#8217;t fly. Before the invention of airplanes there were birds and plenty of unmanned flying devices. Same for the sonic barrier. FTL travel is different. What we already know for sure that the universe is simply not built this way. It might be more interesting to start thinking about the real consequences of that realization instead of insisting on exploring the same fallacy over and over and over again.</p>
<p>As for the Jesus comment &#8211; that doesn&#8217;t really have anything to do with spaceflight either, does it?</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck Shaw</title>
		<link>http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/realistic-space-exploration/comment-page-1/#comment-6152</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck Shaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Oct 2010 21:28:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gamedesignreviews.com/reviews/realistic-space-exploration/#comment-6152</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the lesson in Hard Science. Yes, we all know that it is very, very hard to just even put a rocket out into space, let alone go to Mars, Jupiter, or beyond. But that does not mean that something, some day may yet be discovered that may revolution everything we know. Science does not know everything, otherwise we would already have colonists on Alpha Centauri by now.  I like what Spock&#039;s Brother said on Star Trek 5: The Final Frontier. See the movie if you haven&#039;t already, and check it out. 
He said... 
People said that man would never never fly, and he flew.
They also said that the sound barrier would never be broken, and it was broken.
That Warp Drive, would never be achieved......
But, given enough time, I think that there is nothing that man cannot achieve. But I think that man&#039;s time on Earth is running out. Because Jesus Christ is coming to return and save the world soon.  Then,  all of the talk about stars and galaxies will not matter at all. Think about that too. Amen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the lesson in Hard Science. Yes, we all know that it is very, very hard to just even put a rocket out into space, let alone go to Mars, Jupiter, or beyond. But that does not mean that something, some day may yet be discovered that may revolution everything we know. Science does not know everything, otherwise we would already have colonists on Alpha Centauri by now.  I like what Spock&#8217;s Brother said on Star Trek 5: The Final Frontier. See the movie if you haven&#8217;t already, and check it out.<br />
He said&#8230;<br />
People said that man would never never fly, and he flew.<br />
They also said that the sound barrier would never be broken, and it was broken.<br />
That Warp Drive, would never be achieved&#8230;&#8230;<br />
But, given enough time, I think that there is nothing that man cannot achieve. But I think that man&#8217;s time on Earth is running out. Because Jesus Christ is coming to return and save the world soon.  Then,  all of the talk about stars and galaxies will not matter at all. Think about that too. Amen.</p>
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		<title>By: Krystian Majewski</title>
		<link>http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/realistic-space-exploration/comment-page-1/#comment-5940</link>
		<dc:creator>Krystian Majewski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Sep 2010 20:51:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gamedesignreviews.com/reviews/realistic-space-exploration/#comment-5940</guid>
		<description>Good point but

1. There might be intelligent life in the Solar System. For example in the hidden oceans of Europa. It&#039;s highly unlikely but that rarely stops Sci-Fi writers.

2. Going to other stars doesn&#039;t actually change that. So far there is no evidence for ANY intelligent life forms to exist even in the Milky Way. There are no radio transmissions or other giveaways. If there was life out there we SHOULD have picked up something by now. This problem is called the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Fermi Paradox&lt;/a&gt;. 

3. Sci-Fi works without aliens just as well: Firefly is a good example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point but</p>
<p>1. There might be intelligent life in the Solar System. For example in the hidden oceans of Europa. It&#8217;s highly unlikely but that rarely stops Sci-Fi writers.</p>
<p>2. Going to other stars doesn&#8217;t actually change that. So far there is no evidence for ANY intelligent life forms to exist even in the Milky Way. There are no radio transmissions or other giveaways. If there was life out there we SHOULD have picked up something by now. This problem is called the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox" rel="nofollow">Fermi Paradox</a>. </p>
<p>3. Sci-Fi works without aliens just as well: Firefly is a good example.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/realistic-space-exploration/comment-page-1/#comment-5939</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Sep 2010 18:49:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gamedesignreviews.com/reviews/realistic-space-exploration/#comment-5939</guid>
		<description>Our Solar system may still be unexplored and mysterious, but there most likely aren&#039;t any intelligent life being other than us in it.
And aliens are for some reason a huge thing in sci-fi.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our Solar system may still be unexplored and mysterious, but there most likely aren&#8217;t any intelligent life being other than us in it.<br />
And aliens are for some reason a huge thing in sci-fi.</p>
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		<title>By: Fledi</title>
		<link>http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/realistic-space-exploration/comment-page-1/#comment-5938</link>
		<dc:creator>Fledi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Sep 2010 18:39:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gamedesignreviews.com/reviews/realistic-space-exploration/#comment-5938</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m working on it (hard SciFi game in the solar system), but still have a lot to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m working on it (hard SciFi game in the solar system), but still have a lot to do.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/realistic-space-exploration/comment-page-1/#comment-5780</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Sep 2010 10:39:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gamedesignreviews.com/reviews/realistic-space-exploration/#comment-5780</guid>
		<description>To its credit, Mass Effect does make an effort to explain how it gets around the FTL problem in a somewhat different way to most other media that feature FTL, albeit in an extremely hand-wavy way and making use of what might charitably be called &quot;creatively misunderstood&quot; science.  The very title of the game refers to this, though you could be forgiven for not realising that, since the game gives you no actual explanation of its title&#039;s relevance unless you go looking for it, and you have to be an obsessive codex/journal/weapon description reader to get any details.  

It&#039;s a reference to the mass-dilation effect of relativity, and how element zero (anyone who knows what atomic numbers actually represent is likely to have a stroke upon reading that term, however, so in the very act of lending itself relativistic plausibility, the game sacrifices basic chemical plausibility!) can increase or decrease the apparent mass of an object without moving it at relativistic speed by having a current passed through it in a certain direction (and here, electrical engineers will also balk - it is meaningless under most conceivable circumstances to refer to currents and their direction when referring to individual particles).  The reasoning, if such it may be called, is that since moving at an appreciable fraction of the speed of light causes an apparent change in mass, then inducing an apparent change in mass by other means (element zero) can accelerate you to relativistic speed.  Asimov, this ain&#039;t (to see &quot;realistic&quot; sci-fi done masterfully, read his &quot;The Gods Themselves.&quot;  &quot;Nemesis&quot; also has a slightly more realistic seeming development of FTL, in that it doesn&#039;t jump straight from Saturn-Vs to fully functional super-lightspeed cruisers without at least some intervening transitionary stages that only sort-of work), but it&#039;s probably still better than the science found in the average hollywood space movie, and this is why: bad movie science will simple declare something unknown to exist that outright breaks a particular, fundamental scientific principle for the convenience of plot, and leave it at that.  Much better movie science will do the same thing, but make some effort to explore the other implications this might have on the rest of the universe.  Better movies still will try at least to create the MacGuffin in such a way that you can just, barely, persuade yourself that it might merely be an extension of the law via an unusual set of circumstances, not a complete violation of it.

There may be real science behind all this.  It may even, for all I know with my schoolboy physics, be conceivable for such a mass-effect to exist; according to wikipedia, the game director has referenced element zero to the real life theory of dark matter, which certainly might exist.  However, my points above are based only on the information available in-game, which is how I feel it should really be judged; if they wanted to claim validity by referring to anything else, they should have at least stuck it in the codex.

Mass Effect 2, of course, negates all such high-level discussions of bad science by simply disregarding elementary astrophysics altogether, since the modified map screen lets you fly anywhere you like in a stellar system, including *right through a sun* if you want with no ill effects, without even a passing reference to the likes of angular momentum or energy conservation, reaction mass, transfer orbits, etc.  In the first game, where you simply told the map where you wanted to go and the computer did the rest, you could at least imagine that it was working out all that jazz properly.  Oh, and would it really have hurt to have elliptical orbits?  That&#039;s one case where realism actually looks better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To its credit, Mass Effect does make an effort to explain how it gets around the FTL problem in a somewhat different way to most other media that feature FTL, albeit in an extremely hand-wavy way and making use of what might charitably be called &#8220;creatively misunderstood&#8221; science.  The very title of the game refers to this, though you could be forgiven for not realising that, since the game gives you no actual explanation of its title&#8217;s relevance unless you go looking for it, and you have to be an obsessive codex/journal/weapon description reader to get any details.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s a reference to the mass-dilation effect of relativity, and how element zero (anyone who knows what atomic numbers actually represent is likely to have a stroke upon reading that term, however, so in the very act of lending itself relativistic plausibility, the game sacrifices basic chemical plausibility!) can increase or decrease the apparent mass of an object without moving it at relativistic speed by having a current passed through it in a certain direction (and here, electrical engineers will also balk &#8211; it is meaningless under most conceivable circumstances to refer to currents and their direction when referring to individual particles).  The reasoning, if such it may be called, is that since moving at an appreciable fraction of the speed of light causes an apparent change in mass, then inducing an apparent change in mass by other means (element zero) can accelerate you to relativistic speed.  Asimov, this ain&#8217;t (to see &#8220;realistic&#8221; sci-fi done masterfully, read his &#8220;The Gods Themselves.&#8221;  &#8220;Nemesis&#8221; also has a slightly more realistic seeming development of FTL, in that it doesn&#8217;t jump straight from Saturn-Vs to fully functional super-lightspeed cruisers without at least some intervening transitionary stages that only sort-of work), but it&#8217;s probably still better than the science found in the average hollywood space movie, and this is why: bad movie science will simple declare something unknown to exist that outright breaks a particular, fundamental scientific principle for the convenience of plot, and leave it at that.  Much better movie science will do the same thing, but make some effort to explore the other implications this might have on the rest of the universe.  Better movies still will try at least to create the MacGuffin in such a way that you can just, barely, persuade yourself that it might merely be an extension of the law via an unusual set of circumstances, not a complete violation of it.</p>
<p>There may be real science behind all this.  It may even, for all I know with my schoolboy physics, be conceivable for such a mass-effect to exist; according to wikipedia, the game director has referenced element zero to the real life theory of dark matter, which certainly might exist.  However, my points above are based only on the information available in-game, which is how I feel it should really be judged; if they wanted to claim validity by referring to anything else, they should have at least stuck it in the codex.</p>
<p>Mass Effect 2, of course, negates all such high-level discussions of bad science by simply disregarding elementary astrophysics altogether, since the modified map screen lets you fly anywhere you like in a stellar system, including *right through a sun* if you want with no ill effects, without even a passing reference to the likes of angular momentum or energy conservation, reaction mass, transfer orbits, etc.  In the first game, where you simply told the map where you wanted to go and the computer did the rest, you could at least imagine that it was working out all that jazz properly.  Oh, and would it really have hurt to have elliptical orbits?  That&#8217;s one case where realism actually looks better.</p>
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		<title>By: Krystian Majewski</title>
		<link>http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/realistic-space-exploration/comment-page-1/#comment-2233</link>
		<dc:creator>Krystian Majewski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 21:32:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gamedesignreviews.com/reviews/realistic-space-exploration/#comment-2233</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;My guess is because it gives a bigger sense of the unknown.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That&#039;s my point. It&#039;s a misunderstanding brought by Space Opera itself. The Solar System is big and unknown. Everything outside of it is ridiculous.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Fantasy stories with dragons and witches and wizards and stuff, shouldn’t exist either, right?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No, I didn&#039;t suggest that. But calling them &quot;Historical Novels&quot; would be wrong.

&lt;blockquote&gt;And if sci-fi would be realistic, it would be pretty lame. You wouldn’t even be able to hear ships flying by and exploding and all that.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There is plenty of exciting things to happen in a plausible scenario. It&#039;s the author&#039;s fault if a story is lame.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>My guess is because it gives a bigger sense of the unknown.</p></blockquote>
<p>That&#8217;s my point. It&#8217;s a misunderstanding brought by Space Opera itself. The Solar System is big and unknown. Everything outside of it is ridiculous.</p>
<blockquote><p>Fantasy stories with dragons and witches and wizards and stuff, shouldn’t exist either, right?</p></blockquote>
<p>No, I didn&#8217;t suggest that. But calling them &#8220;Historical Novels&#8221; would be wrong.</p>
<blockquote><p>And if sci-fi would be realistic, it would be pretty lame. You wouldn’t even be able to hear ships flying by and exploding and all that.</p></blockquote>
<p>There is plenty of exciting things to happen in a plausible scenario. It&#8217;s the author&#8217;s fault if a story is lame.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/realistic-space-exploration/comment-page-1/#comment-2230</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 18:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gamedesignreviews.com/reviews/realistic-space-exploration/#comment-2230</guid>
		<description>I agree, FTL travel will never happen, but that doesn&#039;t mean people should stop writing sci-fi or make all sci-fi happen in our solar system.
Sci-fi is usually on a very large scale, because most people find that more fascinating than traveling inside our solar system. My guess is because it gives a bigger sense of the unknown.

Fantasy stories with dragons and witches and wizards and stuff, shouldn&#039;t exist either, right? There was never any of that.

And if sci-fi would be realistic, it would be pretty lame. You wouldn&#039;t even be able to hear ships flying by and exploding and all that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, FTL travel will never happen, but that doesn&#8217;t mean people should stop writing sci-fi or make all sci-fi happen in our solar system.<br />
Sci-fi is usually on a very large scale, because most people find that more fascinating than traveling inside our solar system. My guess is because it gives a bigger sense of the unknown.</p>
<p>Fantasy stories with dragons and witches and wizards and stuff, shouldn&#8217;t exist either, right? There was never any of that.</p>
<p>And if sci-fi would be realistic, it would be pretty lame. You wouldn&#8217;t even be able to hear ships flying by and exploding and all that.</p>
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		<title>By: Krystian Majewski</title>
		<link>http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/realistic-space-exploration/comment-page-1/#comment-2229</link>
		<dc:creator>Krystian Majewski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 12:01:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gamedesignreviews.com/reviews/realistic-space-exploration/#comment-2229</guid>
		<description>Yes, this is a bit of a bummer. On the other hand, we haven&#039;t discovered any signs of intelligent life yet so flying there wouldn&#039;t bring us any good anyway. It is actually one of the many weird dilemmas in science - the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Fermi Paradox&lt;/a&gt;.

But keep in mind that aliens in most Sci-Fi are just weird-looking humanoids. Their bodies and minds rarely differ significantly from humans. As Stanislaw Lem said in Solaris: &quot;we don&#039;t need other worlds, we need mirrors&quot;. You can get that level of diversity within our human race, there is no need for aliens if this is the kind of Sci-Fi you are looking for.

And finally, there are a couple of places where there could be life in our very own Solar System. It wouldn&#039;t be intelligent - probably just bacteria. But that&#039;s the power of Sci-Fi - exploring plausible future scenarios. How would the discovery of alien bacteria affect our society?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, this is a bit of a bummer. On the other hand, we haven&#8217;t discovered any signs of intelligent life yet so flying there wouldn&#8217;t bring us any good anyway. It is actually one of the many weird dilemmas in science &#8211; the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox" rel="nofollow">Fermi Paradox</a>.</p>
<p>But keep in mind that aliens in most Sci-Fi are just weird-looking humanoids. Their bodies and minds rarely differ significantly from humans. As Stanislaw Lem said in Solaris: &#8220;we don&#8217;t need other worlds, we need mirrors&#8221;. You can get that level of diversity within our human race, there is no need for aliens if this is the kind of Sci-Fi you are looking for.</p>
<p>And finally, there are a couple of places where there could be life in our very own Solar System. It wouldn&#8217;t be intelligent &#8211; probably just bacteria. But that&#8217;s the power of Sci-Fi &#8211; exploring plausible future scenarios. How would the discovery of alien bacteria affect our society?</p>
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