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	<title>Comments on: Choice in Narratives</title>
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	<link>http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/choice-in-narratives/</link>
	<description>Inductive Game Design Research</description>
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		<title>By: axcho</title>
		<link>http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/choice-in-narratives/comment-page-1/#comment-4222</link>
		<dc:creator>axcho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jul 2010 23:16:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gamedesignreviews.com/?p=2312#comment-4222</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t think it was that interesting until I played it either. I&#039;d recommend that you wait to classify or dismiss it until you&#039;ve played it a few times. And also that you bump up the priority of playing it.

In some sense you will come upon a paradox if you get too fixated on the idea of securing authorial control and encoding it immutably into the mechanics of your game. You get too greedy with control and pretty soon your players have nothing to do; it ceases to be a game.

Admittedly Sleep Is Death goes pretty far toward the &quot;abdication of authorship&quot; approach of game storytelling, like The Sims, but at the same time once you start playing it you will start to see ways in which this authorship could be regained, while still allowing the player considerable freedom within it. It&#039;s a shift in worldview. From the old place it looks like a dead end, but once you step over you will start to see that this is just the beginning.

For example, when I play I feel like an Actor. I am Playing a Role. This is fundamentally different than how I feel when I play a typical game, even one with a good story. And it is one of many aspects of Sleep Is Death that offer a new model for understanding authorship and story and freedom and choice in games, with many more possibilities than we had previously thought possible.

Cool?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t think it was that interesting until I played it either. I&#8217;d recommend that you wait to classify or dismiss it until you&#8217;ve played it a few times. And also that you bump up the priority of playing it.</p>
<p>In some sense you will come upon a paradox if you get too fixated on the idea of securing authorial control and encoding it immutably into the mechanics of your game. You get too greedy with control and pretty soon your players have nothing to do; it ceases to be a game.</p>
<p>Admittedly Sleep Is Death goes pretty far toward the &#8220;abdication of authorship&#8221; approach of game storytelling, like The Sims, but at the same time once you start playing it you will start to see ways in which this authorship could be regained, while still allowing the player considerable freedom within it. It&#8217;s a shift in worldview. From the old place it looks like a dead end, but once you step over you will start to see that this is just the beginning.</p>
<p>For example, when I play I feel like an Actor. I am Playing a Role. This is fundamentally different than how I feel when I play a typical game, even one with a good story. And it is one of many aspects of Sleep Is Death that offer a new model for understanding authorship and story and freedom and choice in games, with many more possibilities than we had previously thought possible.</p>
<p>Cool?</p>
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		<title>By: Krystian Majewski</title>
		<link>http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/choice-in-narratives/comment-page-1/#comment-4221</link>
		<dc:creator>Krystian Majewski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jul 2010 22:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gamedesignreviews.com/?p=2312#comment-4221</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know about this one. Isn&#039;t Sleep is Death a game narrative as a chartroom is literature? I thought the trick was to be able to understand storytelling at a fundamental level and putting that genie in the bottle. Giving up all authorial control to the players doesn&#039;t seem like doing either of those things.

But it is an intriguing experiment. I&#039;m yet to play it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know about this one. Isn&#8217;t Sleep is Death a game narrative as a chartroom is literature? I thought the trick was to be able to understand storytelling at a fundamental level and putting that genie in the bottle. Giving up all authorial control to the players doesn&#8217;t seem like doing either of those things.</p>
<p>But it is an intriguing experiment. I&#8217;m yet to play it.</p>
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		<title>By: axcho</title>
		<link>http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/choice-in-narratives/comment-page-1/#comment-4212</link>
		<dc:creator>axcho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jul 2010 05:26:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gamedesignreviews.com/?p=2312#comment-4212</guid>
		<description>Not to be annoying, but have you played Sleep Is Death yet? Jason Rohrer&#039;s new game. It is very important.

I just started playing it with a storyteller-ish friend, and my mind is starting to open up in all sorts of interesting ways.

Check the gallery at SIDTube to see some example stories. I&#039;ve already posted one as a player under my name, &quot;axcho&quot;.

I&#039;m curious to hear what you think of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to be annoying, but have you played Sleep Is Death yet? Jason Rohrer&#8217;s new game. It is very important.</p>
<p>I just started playing it with a storyteller-ish friend, and my mind is starting to open up in all sorts of interesting ways.</p>
<p>Check the gallery at SIDTube to see some example stories. I&#8217;ve already posted one as a player under my name, &#8220;axcho&#8221;.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m curious to hear what you think of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Kimari</title>
		<link>http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/choice-in-narratives/comment-page-1/#comment-4203</link>
		<dc:creator>Kimari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:39:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gamedesignreviews.com/?p=2312#comment-4203</guid>
		<description>Of course! It&#039;s just that some rules now apply in a different way and that changes how drama can work effectively in games ... which doesn&#039;t negate EVERYTHING we now know about drama, it just requires a particular thought process or change in perspective that we are not used to ...

A simple example would be the difficulty of pulling off an in medias res without confusing the hell out of the player or bathing him in exposition and tutorials. Is it impossible to do well? I don&#039;t think so, but it&#039;s probably more difficult than in other media.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course! It&#8217;s just that some rules now apply in a different way and that changes how drama can work effectively in games &#8230; which doesn&#8217;t negate EVERYTHING we now know about drama, it just requires a particular thought process or change in perspective that we are not used to &#8230;</p>
<p>A simple example would be the difficulty of pulling off an in medias res without confusing the hell out of the player or bathing him in exposition and tutorials. Is it impossible to do well? I don&#8217;t think so, but it&#8217;s probably more difficult than in other media.</p>
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		<title>By: Krystian Majewski</title>
		<link>http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/choice-in-narratives/comment-page-1/#comment-4201</link>
		<dc:creator>Krystian Majewski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 11:50:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gamedesignreviews.com/?p=2312#comment-4201</guid>
		<description>I agree that responsibility is an important way to bind the player emotionally to a game narrative. It&#039;s a unique property of game narratives. &lt;a href=&quot;http://gamedesignreviews.com/reviews/sword-of-mana-do-dont-show/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I wrote a similar thing here&lt;/a&gt;.

However, we shouldn&#039;t discard the thousands of years of knowledge in linear storytelling. Of course linear dramaturgy plays an important role in games as well. Just because something happens to ME doesn&#039;t mean that I will be automatically engaged by it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that responsibility is an important way to bind the player emotionally to a game narrative. It&#8217;s a unique property of game narratives. <a href="http://gamedesignreviews.com/reviews/sword-of-mana-do-dont-show/" rel="nofollow">I wrote a similar thing here</a>.</p>
<p>However, we shouldn&#8217;t discard the thousands of years of knowledge in linear storytelling. Of course linear dramaturgy plays an important role in games as well. Just because something happens to ME doesn&#8217;t mean that I will be automatically engaged by it.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Krystian Majewski</title>
		<link>http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/choice-in-narratives/comment-page-1/#comment-4200</link>
		<dc:creator>Krystian Majewski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 11:43:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gamedesignreviews.com/?p=2312#comment-4200</guid>
		<description>I agree with you on this. There is just one thing I would point out: we shouldn&#039;t under-estimate the importance of details. All the minute choices, all the seeming random events make up the the experience. They do a lot in establishing an investment in the world the game evokes, even if they do not directly contribute to the story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you on this. There is just one thing I would point out: we shouldn&#8217;t under-estimate the importance of details. All the minute choices, all the seeming random events make up the the experience. They do a lot in establishing an investment in the world the game evokes, even if they do not directly contribute to the story.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Krystian Majewski</title>
		<link>http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/choice-in-narratives/comment-page-1/#comment-4199</link>
		<dc:creator>Krystian Majewski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 11:25:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gamedesignreviews.com/?p=2312#comment-4199</guid>
		<description>Thanks for that video. I saw it earlier, and liked it a lot.

As for you comment - I wouldn&#039;t reduce the discussion down to Ebert. The reason for re-creating existing narrative structures in games is not only to be able to recognize their artistic value. There is a much more pragmatic reason. We have already so much knowledge on how to construct and de-construct narratives in linear media. We need to find a way to transfer at least part of that knowledge onto non-linear media. Otherwise, we would need to re-invent the wheel. That would be quite a disadvantage for video-games as a cultural medium.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that video. I saw it earlier, and liked it a lot.</p>
<p>As for you comment &#8211; I wouldn&#8217;t reduce the discussion down to Ebert. The reason for re-creating existing narrative structures in games is not only to be able to recognize their artistic value. There is a much more pragmatic reason. We have already so much knowledge on how to construct and de-construct narratives in linear media. We need to find a way to transfer at least part of that knowledge onto non-linear media. Otherwise, we would need to re-invent the wheel. That would be quite a disadvantage for video-games as a cultural medium.</p>
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		<title>By: Krystian Majewski</title>
		<link>http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/choice-in-narratives/comment-page-1/#comment-4198</link>
		<dc:creator>Krystian Majewski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 11:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gamedesignreviews.com/?p=2312#comment-4198</guid>
		<description>Good point! &lt;a href=&quot;http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/monster-hunter-tri-diary-6-%E2%80%93-lagiacrus/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I had a similar thought when playing Monster Hunter Tri&lt;/a&gt;. It a game where there is a climax mid-way in the game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point! <a href="http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/monster-hunter-tri-diary-6-%E2%80%93-lagiacrus/" rel="nofollow">I had a similar thought when playing Monster Hunter Tri</a>. It a game where there is a climax mid-way in the game.</p>
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		<title>By: Kimari</title>
		<link>http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/choice-in-narratives/comment-page-1/#comment-4167</link>
		<dc:creator>Kimari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 05:00:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gamedesignreviews.com/?p=2312#comment-4167</guid>
		<description>(sorry for the double post)
&quot;Or maybe interactive storytelling is simply very, very different. Maybe a story like Romeo and Juliet simply cannot be told in an interactive way.&quot;
As a matter of fact, yes, it can be experienced in the same way. The thing is, not every player is going to experience it that way. There may be only one dude out there that just so happens to experience the story like so.
Now, is that good? bad? ... I&#039;ll say neither: It&#039;s just different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(sorry for the double post)<br />
&#8220;Or maybe interactive storytelling is simply very, very different. Maybe a story like Romeo and Juliet simply cannot be told in an interactive way.&#8221;<br />
As a matter of fact, yes, it can be experienced in the same way. The thing is, not every player is going to experience it that way. There may be only one dude out there that just so happens to experience the story like so.<br />
Now, is that good? bad? &#8230; I&#8217;ll say neither: It&#8217;s just different.</p>
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		<title>By: Kimari</title>
		<link>http://gamedesignreviews.com/scrapbook/choice-in-narratives/comment-page-1/#comment-4166</link>
		<dc:creator>Kimari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 04:46:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gamedesignreviews.com/?p=2312#comment-4166</guid>
		<description>But thinking about interactive experiences within the frame of traditional media does not seem appropriate to me.
Saying that giving the player the power to choose renders the drama of the story obsolete is missing the entire point of interactivity. The story is important and engaging not because it has drama in it, because it&#039;s happening to YOU. I don&#039;t care what my character does in cutscenes since I&#039;m not in control of her actions, so the drama that some game designers might think is introduced by a cutscene is basically null for me and quite a few players, if not most of them.

Now, if one constructs the game so that there&#039;s plenty of opportunity for player-driven drama, then we can start talking. Though I see that you probably think something similar to this, given the solutions you proposed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But thinking about interactive experiences within the frame of traditional media does not seem appropriate to me.<br />
Saying that giving the player the power to choose renders the drama of the story obsolete is missing the entire point of interactivity. The story is important and engaging not because it has drama in it, because it&#8217;s happening to YOU. I don&#8217;t care what my character does in cutscenes since I&#8217;m not in control of her actions, so the drama that some game designers might think is introduced by a cutscene is basically null for me and quite a few players, if not most of them.</p>
<p>Now, if one constructs the game so that there&#8217;s plenty of opportunity for player-driven drama, then we can start talking. Though I see that you probably think something similar to this, given the solutions you proposed.</p>
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